Discussion:
tmpfs
(too old to reply)
Sonic
2016-07-29 16:12:24 UTC
Permalink
I remember a bit of fanfare when tmpfs was enabled in OpenBSD -
http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20131217081921 and at the
time switched from using mfs to tmpfs. At the time it appeared that
tmpfs solved some mfs issues. It seems we've come full circle and
noticed during a perusal of the cvs list that tmpfs is now disabled in
-current. However, there seems to be no mention of that in following
-current faq at https://www.openbsd.org/faq/current.html.
Theo de Raadt
2016-07-29 16:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sonic
I remember a bit of fanfare when tmpfs was enabled in OpenBSD -
http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20131217081921 and at the
time switched from using mfs to tmpfs. At the time it appeared that
tmpfs solved some mfs issues. It seems we've come full circle and
noticed during a perusal of the cvs list that tmpfs is now disabled in
-current.
Because the code quality is crap.
Post by Sonic
However, there seems to be no mention of that in following
-current faq at https://www.openbsd.org/faq/current.html.
We don't spend hours of our time adding unimportant notes to that file.
mxb
2016-07-29 20:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Theo de Raadt
2016-07-29 20:45:32 UTC
Permalink
Are there any "gatekeepers" around the code?
What is a gatekeeper?

Is it a maintainer? If you want this code, step up.
I thought "tech" was the best place to release
questionable code?
What kind of release are you talking about?

We are closer to using "cvs rm" as a release mechanism.
Theo de Raadt
2016-07-29 21:04:50 UTC
Permalink
I don't appreciate the private reply.

Adding misc back in.
1. I don't use tmpfs. So for me - I don' care that much.
If you don't care, then don't talk about it.

In particular, don't send a message which criticizes the approaches we
take to make OpenBSD more robust.

Don't act butt-hurt in public, then reply privately and say you don't
care.
might have missed that part, if any)
Look, you said you don't care.
3. You know better
But apparently you don't.

Your voice does not count.

If you cannot contribute in some way to improve code, then don't
question the people who invest their own time to either
(a) improve the code
or (b) take another action when they don't see a way to improve the code

It is that simple. When you are such a jerk, it requires someone to
act like a jerk to demonstrate a big problem in the open source
ecosystem: People who generate words rather than action.
mxb
2016-07-30 09:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Missed "CC all" last time.

You or any other actually answered my questions.
Your “jumps” are as usual.

I understand that best way to defend is to actually attack.
This kind of answer I received is expected.

I could add more to this mail, but I’d rather not.
Post by Theo de Raadt
I don't appreciate the private reply.
Adding misc back in.
1. I don't use tmpfs. So for me - I don' care that much.
If you don't care, then don't talk about it.
In particular, don't send a message which criticizes the approaches we
take to make OpenBSD more robust.
Don't act butt-hurt in public, then reply privately and say you don't
care.
might have missed that part, if any)
Look, you said you don't care.
3. You know better
But apparently you don't.
Your voice does not count.
If you cannot contribute in some way to improve code, then don't
question the people who invest their own time to either
(a) improve the code
or (b) take another action when they don't see a way to improve the code
It is that simple. When you are such a jerk, it requires someone to
act like a jerk to demonstrate a big problem in the open source
ecosystem: People who generate words rather than action.
mxb
2016-07-30 17:52:17 UTC
Permalink
I don't appreciate the private reply.

Adding misc back in.
Just shut up.
Theo de Raadt
2016-07-30 17:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, you sure are the cool dude.

Despite the existance of people like you, OpenBSD has been
progressing as working code for 20 years.


And what have you added. Just words.

Mean ones about things you later say you don't are about. Just
layers of spite from you when it is pointed out your words don't
change the world in any way.
Post by Theo de Raadt
I don't appreciate the private reply.
Adding misc back in.
Just shut up.
mxb
2016-07-31 14:37:36 UTC
Permalink
While looking at the mirror, read your last email once again.
Post by Theo de Raadt
Yeah, you sure are the cool dude.
Despite the existance of people like you, OpenBSD has been
progressing as working code for 20 years.
And what have you added. Just words.
Mean ones about things you later say you don't are about. Just
layers of spite from you when it is pointed out your words don't
change the world in any way.
Post by Theo de Raadt
I don't appreciate the private reply.
Adding misc back in.
Just shut up.
ludovic coues
2016-07-31 14:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Guess which one of you and theo have it's name all over the CVS tree ?
Post by mxb
While looking at the mirror, read your last email once again.
Post by Theo de Raadt
Yeah, you sure are the cool dude.
Despite the existance of people like you, OpenBSD has been
progressing as working code for 20 years.
And what have you added. Just words.
Mean ones about things you later say you don't are about. Just
layers of spite from you when it is pointed out your words don't
change the world in any way.
Post by Theo de Raadt
I don't appreciate the private reply.
Adding misc back in.
Just shut up.
--
Cordialement, Coues Ludovic
+336 148 743 42
mxb
2016-07-31 17:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Who gives a sh*t?!
Ppl supporting OpenBSD community what matters - with userbase without users is
like masturbating.

Ppl like me test public diffs on live equipment, donate money and buy CDs so
Theo can continue to milk this project
so he can bike in Canadian woods.

As we speak it in Russia:
“His long tongue will some day shorten his neck”.

Good advice for him is to pledge() his mouth before someone else do it.

The beauty in globalization is that distances and time get shorter.
Even time-to-market AND market itself.

With his big mouth like THIS he might get it turbulent.
He actually did, buy pulling off DARPA feed.
Post by ludovic coues
Guess which one of you and theo have it's name all over the CVS tree ?
Post by mxb
While looking at the mirror, read your last email once again.
Post by Theo de Raadt
Yeah, you sure are the cool dude.
Despite the existance of people like you, OpenBSD has been
progressing as working code for 20 years.
And what have you added. Just words.
Mean ones about things you later say you don't are about. Just
layers of spite from you when it is pointed out your words don't
change the world in any way.
Post by Theo de Raadt
I don't appreciate the private reply.
Adding misc back in.
Just shut up.
--
Cordialement, Coues Ludovic
+336 148 743 42
Aioi Yuuko
2016-07-31 18:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by mxb
Who gives a sh*t?!
This project, as it happens.
Post by mxb
Ppl supporting OpenBSD community what matters - with userbase without users is
like masturbating.
What is this obsession with masturbating? Linus has it too. At least you get credit for not mentioning monkeys.
Post by mxb
Ppl like me test public diffs on live equipment, donate money and buy CDs so
Theo can continue to milk this project
so he can bike in Canadian woods.
Testing in production is your stupid decision.
Post by mxb
“His long tongue will some day shorten his neck”.
Stop making Russians look bad. Some of us like OpenBSD.
Post by mxb
Good advice for him is to pledge() his mouth before someone else do it.
See your previous message re: mirrors.
Post by mxb
The beauty in globalization is that distances and time get shorter.
Even time-to-market AND market itself.
Perhaps absent that, the effort threshold for you to write a message would be higher, sparing us all.
Post by mxb
With his big mouth like THIS he might get it turbulent.
He actually did, buy pulling off DARPA feed.
``Who gives a sh*t?!'', as you so eloquently put it.
Karel Gardas
2016-07-31 18:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Could you be so kind and move this conversation out of misc@

Thanks! Karel
Post by mxb
Who gives a sh*t?!
Ppl supporting OpenBSD community what matters - with userbase without users
is
Post by mxb
like masturbating.
Ppl like me test public diffs on live equipment, donate money and buy CDs
so
Post by mxb
Theo can continue to milk this project
so he can bike in Canadian woods.
“His long tongue will some day shorten his neck”.
Good advice for him is to pledge() his mouth before someone else do it.
The beauty in globalization is that distances and time get shorter.
Even time-to-market AND market itself.
With his big mouth like THIS he might get it turbulent.
He actually did, buy pulling off DARPA feed.
Post by ludovic coues
Guess which one of you and theo have it's name all over the CVS tree ?
Post by mxb
While looking at the mirror, read your last email once again.
Post by Theo de Raadt
Yeah, you sure are the cool dude.
Despite the existance of people like you, OpenBSD has been
progressing as working code for 20 years.
And what have you added. Just words.
Mean ones about things you later say you don't are about. Just
layers of spite from you when it is pointed out your words don't
change the world in any way.
Post by Theo de Raadt
I don't appreciate the private reply.
Adding misc back in.
Just shut up.
--
Cordialement, Coues Ludovic
+336 148 743 42
mxb
2016-07-31 18:44:05 UTC
Permalink
mxb
2016-07-31 18:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Consus
2016-07-31 18:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by mxb
Who gives a sh*t?!
Ppl supporting OpenBSD community what matters - with userbase without users is
like masturbating.
Ppl like me test public diffs on live equipment, donate money and buy CDs so
Theo can continue to milk this project
so he can bike in Canadian woods.
“His long tongue will some day shorten his neck”.
Good advice for him is to pledge() his mouth before someone else do it.
The beauty in globalization is that distances and time get shorter.
Even time-to-market AND market itself.
With his big mouth like THIS he might get it turbulent.
He actually did, buy pulling off DARPA feed.
Come on, both you and Theo are such drama queens. Shut up already.
mxb
2016-07-31 18:53:26 UTC
Permalink
mxb
2016-07-31 19:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Good one.
But private messages are not appreciated
So misc is in loop.
Sorry to pollute your private space.
Post by Karel Gardas
Thanks! Karel
Post by mxb
Who gives a sh*t?!
Ppl supporting OpenBSD community what matters - with userbase without users
is
Post by Karel Gardas
Post by mxb
like masturbating.
Ppl like me test public diffs on live equipment, donate money and buy CDs
so
Post by Karel Gardas
Post by mxb
Theo can continue to milk this project
so he can bike in Canadian woods.
“His long tongue will some day shorten his neck”.
Good advice for him is to pledge() his mouth before someone else do it.
The beauty in globalization is that distances and time get shorter.
Even time-to-market AND market itself.
With his big mouth like THIS he might get it turbulent.
He actually did, buy pulling off DARPA feed.
Post by ludovic coues
Guess which one of you and theo have it's name all over the CVS tree ?
Post by mxb
While looking at the mirror, read your last email once again.
Post by Theo de Raadt
Yeah, you sure are the cool dude.
Despite the existance of people like you, OpenBSD has been
progressing as working code for 20 years.
And what have you added. Just words.
Mean ones about things you later say you don't are about. Just
layers of spite from you when it is pointed out your words don't
change the world in any way.
Post by Theo de Raadt
I don't appreciate the private reply.
Adding misc back in.
Just shut up.
--
Cordialement, Coues Ludovic
+336 148 743 42
mxb
2016-07-31 19:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Else it is just a discussion.
drama
Consus
2016-07-31 19:46:37 UTC
Permalink
?????? ?? ?????? ??????????????, ???? ?????????? ???????? ????????????????.
?? ???????????? ?????? ?????? ??????????????????????????.
Also fix your goddamn mail client. Your encoding is shit.
Steve Clement
2016-07-31 18:34:56 UTC
Permalink
For Trumps sake Kids, put some gloves on and do it like proper coders or grab
a drink together and talk it out…

Hugs,

Steve
Post by mxb
Who gives a sh*t?!
Ppl supporting OpenBSD community what matters - with userbase without users
is
Post by mxb
like masturbating.
Ppl like me test public diffs on live equipment, donate money and buy CDs
so
Post by mxb
Theo can continue to milk this project
so he can bike in Canadian woods.
“His long tongue will some day shorten his neck”.
Good advice for him is to pledge() his mouth before someone else do it.
The beauty in globalization is that distances and time get shorter.
Even time-to-market AND market itself.
With his big mouth like THIS he might get it turbulent.
He actually did, buy pulling off DARPA feed.
ʞiᴌᴌʍᴀᴎ ḂØԲH
2016-07-31 20:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Alpine is great!

_________________________
U N I X L e g i o n . c o m
hacking the world
Network operations center
+593 995 956811 | +593 7 2952-763

"""This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed. If
you have received this email in error please notify the system manager."""
Post by Consus
?????? ?? ?????? ??????????????, ???? ?????????? ???????? ????????????????.
?? ???????????? ?????? ?????? ??????????????????????????.
Also fix your goddamn mail client. Your encoding is shit.
mxb
2016-07-31 21:02:29 UTC
Permalink
Mine is sane. Yours just couple of thousands years after.
Fix yours.
Post by Consus
?????? ?? ?????? ??????????????, ???? ?????????? ????????
????????????????.
Post by Consus
?? ???????????? ?????? ?????? ??????????????????????????.
Also fix your goddamn mail client. Your encoding is shit.
mxb
2016-07-31 21:34:16 UTC
Permalink
Baikal too!
Post by ʞiᴌᴌʍᴀᴎ ḂØԲH
Alpine is great!
_________________________
U N I X L e g i o n . c o m
hacking the world
Network operations center
+593 995 956811 | +593 7 2952-763
"""This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed. If
you have received this email in error please notify the system manager."""
Post by Consus
?????? ?? ?????? ??????????????, ???? ?????????? ????????
????????????????.
Post by ʞiᴌᴌʍᴀᴎ ḂØԲH
Post by Consus
?? ???????????? ?????? ?????? ??????????????????????????.
Also fix your goddamn mail client. Your encoding is shit.
Consus
2016-07-31 21:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by mxb
Mine is sane.
No, it's not. Your email contains valid UTF-8 symbols but mime states
that it is in us-ascii:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Really, just shut up and fix it. It's that simple :)
b***@safe-mail.net
2016-07-31 23:22:25 UTC
Permalink
...
For someone who "doesn't use tmpfs" or "doesn't care that much" about
it, you sure are making a racket on this thread.
Marko Cupać
2016-08-01 10:41:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 21:48:46 +0300
Post by Consus
Come on, both you and Theo are such drama queens. Shut up already.
This. But I'd say there's more to it.

I don't know how things were back when OpenBSD has just been forked,
but I imagine it was something like a wave. Maybe similar to wave of
techno music in 90s which I was a part of. Similar in a way that
majority of partygoers were also mixing, and a number of them also
producing music. Not for money or entertainment, but for social
reform, and in order to make a world a better place. It was great.

As time went by, techno parties started to attract more people with
completely different vision. Less and less people cared about which drum
machine gives the best sound and what to solder where in order to get
midi control over analogue synth that originally lacked it, while more
and more people started to care if the guy/gal who performs is
'popular' enough, if he/she will attract enough 'cool' people etc. So
the wave gradually dissolved.

Sad as it is, I doubt OpenBSD will get some kind of '2nd wave'. And for
people who experienced a wave, it can be painful to watch it disappear
or morph into something else. It can be hard to see friends united in an
idea being replaced by strangers whining about why something isn't
clearly labelled as it should, or why something doesn't work in a way
they think it should etc. But there's no way back. Those people are
here to stay, and the old ones are not coming back.

I think that people who test, report problems, and ask questions which
are not answered in documentation, also bring value to OpenBSD,
even though they don't know how to write a patch (yeah, that's me I
admit). I know it is annoying to an expert to be constantly and
repeatedly asked about trivial questions. It can drive him/her mad. But
the solution is not to silence those who ask. Perhaps the solution is
to try to find people who would be happy to answer noobs' questions,
update documentation, administer bugtracker etc. Or do any other tasks
which are not really intended to be performed in pauses between diving
in kernel code.

Now how is this in any way related to tmpfs? I have no idea :)
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/
Eric Furman
2016-08-02 06:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marko Cupać
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 21:48:46 +0300
Post by Consus
Come on, both you and Theo are such drama queens. Shut up already.
This. But I'd say there's more to it.
<bad analogy snipped>

The guy was just being a troll and Theo saw right through him.
At the risk of sounding like a troll myself since I don't know the whole
story behind tmpfs, I am going to guess that the tmpfs fiasco was
not one of Theo's finest hours and he doesn't want to be reminded
of it. OpenBSD has moved on from tmpfs and the issue is closed.
Theo didn't need this asshole to bring it up again. He did it for only
one purpose, to "F" with Theo. To be a troll.
His follow up responses just proved Theo to be right.
Marko Cupać
2016-08-02 07:56:38 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 02:53:43 -0400
Post by Eric Furman
The guy was just being a troll and Theo saw right through him.
At the risk of sounding like a troll myself since I don't know the
whole story behind tmpfs, I am going to guess that the tmpfs fiasco
was not one of Theo's finest hours and he doesn't want to be reminded
of it. OpenBSD has moved on from tmpfs and the issue is closed.
I am using tmpfs on several of my production systems, and until I
saw this thread I had no idea I should avoid it. The problem is not in
a bad piece of software that slipped into release - this will always
happen. The problem is lack of communication with the community
regarding this. Simple 'tmpfs is crap, don't use it, we are removing it
in next release' on misc@ would suffice. And it happened
unintentionally, by means of this thread.
Post by Eric Furman
Theo didn't need this asshole to bring it up again. He did it for only
one purpose, to "F" with Theo. To be a troll.
His follow up responses just proved Theo to be right.
I'm thankful to both OP and Theo for their initial mails in this thread.
The rest is crap :)

--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/
Roderick
2016-08-02 09:17:39 UTC
Permalink
Marc Espie
2016-08-02 12:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Furman
Post by Marko Cupać
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 21:48:46 +0300
Post by Consus
Come on, both you and Theo are such drama queens. Shut up already.
This. But I'd say there's more to it.
<bad analogy snipped>
The guy was just being a troll and Theo saw right through him.
At the risk of sounding like a troll myself since I don't know the whole
story behind tmpfs, I am going to guess that the tmpfs fiasco was
not one of Theo's finest hours and he doesn't want to be reminded
of it. OpenBSD has moved on from tmpfs and the issue is closed.
Nope, I'm rather sure Theo doesn't care one way or the other.

I'm one of the guys who would very much like working tmpfs. Actually, it
has worked "good enough for me", but there are a few issues at work.

- I lack the time needed to fully dive into the kernel part.
- naddy did say multiple times it doesn't go all that fast compared to ffs
with ssd (well, I don't have a ssd on my build machines, so tmpfs is
marginally faster)
- there are loads of small nits in it that should properly be fixed.

Admittedly, I think a few good things came out of tmpfs. I've seen the fixes
(dabbled) for some of the problems, and in at least one case, the argument
check was moved up into the VFS layer.

In reality, every time I look at the VFS kernel layer, I get side-tracked
into thinking this is horrible code (the marshalling/unmarshalling of
parameters is very unnecessary, and doing pseudo inheritance by hand at the
function pointer level is horrible... there's a huge amount of weird
duplicated code in there... having three vfs structs for each fs based on
the type of file (normal file or otherwise) is rather strange, and I'm
reasonably certain some of the failure mode is dubious at best.


That said, it's on my long long list of things to try to play more with
eventually... but that list gets longer everyday, and Theo and other people
tend to add "priority" items to it that trump my ventures into kernel-land...
b***@safe-mail.net
2016-08-02 12:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Espie
...
Nope, I'm rather sure Theo doesn't care one way or the other.
I'm one of the guys who would very much like working tmpfs. Actually, it
has worked "good enough for me", but there are a few issues at work.
- I lack the time needed to fully dive into the kernel part.
- naddy did say multiple times it doesn't go all that fast compared to ffs
with ssd (well, I don't have a ssd on my build machines, so tmpfs is
marginally faster)
- there are loads of small nits in it that should properly be fixed.
Admittedly, I think a few good things came out of tmpfs. I've seen the fixes
(dabbled) for some of the problems, and in at least one case, the argument
check was moved up into the VFS layer.
In reality, every time I look at the VFS kernel layer, I get side-tracked
into thinking this is horrible code (the marshalling/unmarshalling of
parameters is very unnecessary, and doing pseudo inheritance by hand at the
function pointer level is horrible... there's a huge amount of weird
duplicated code in there... having three vfs structs for each fs based on
the type of file (normal file or otherwise) is rather strange, and I'm
reasonably certain some of the failure mode is dubious at best.
That said, it's on my long long list of things to try to play more with
eventually... but that list gets longer everyday, and Theo and other people
tend to add "priority" items to it that trump my ventures into kernel-land...
Well, tmpfs certainly lived up to its name. Introduced in 5.5 only to be
disabled in 6.0, there couldn't have been a more temporary file system.
Sonic
2016-08-02 13:20:47 UTC
Permalink
I don't know why this thread got out of hand. But, as the OP I really
had just two points. One was that, like myself, there may have been
many others using tmpfs (due to the upbeat announcement of its
inclusion). And that two, there was no indication of its removal in
the "following -current" faq, as I (apparently incorrectly) thought it
might be important if your system doesn't either successfully reboot
or successfully mount all of your file systems after installing a new
kernel, especially hampering those upgrading remotely.
Theo de Raadt
2016-08-02 13:42:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sonic
I don't know why this thread got out of hand. But, as the OP I really
had just two points. One was that, like myself, there may have been
many others using tmpfs (due to the upbeat announcement of its
inclusion).
This is OpenBSD. Things change.
Post by Sonic
And that two, there was no indication of its removal in
the "following -current" faq, as I (apparently incorrectly) thought it
might be importaunt if your system doesn't either successfully reboot
or successfully mount all of your file systems after installing a new
kernel, especially hampering those upgrading remotely.
Whoa. You haven't read the first paragraph of current.html, let me
include it here:

Active OpenBSD development is known as the -current branch. These
sources are frequently compiled into releases known as
snapshots. Active development sometimes pushes aggressive changes, and
complications can arise when building the latest code from a previous
point in time. Some of the shortcuts for getting over these hurdles
are explained on this page. In general, it's far better to use the
OpenBSD upgrade procedure with a newer snapshot, as developers will
have gone through the trouble for you already.

That purpose of the page is to help people "make build" through the
most disruptive changes.

You seem to believe it is for a different purpose -- to alert about removal
of subsystems which are not critical for building through snapshots.

We already have significant problems curating change reports --
basically folding the CommitLog down to plus.html files, and finally
creating a 60.html for for an upcoming release. Go look at the state
of the 60.html file. This is simply not something volunteers can
consistantly do well.

It should tell you that you missed the commits in the log!

There is noone in our group who has a role to provide reports in the
form you are asking for.

Perhaps it should be done. Perhaps by you? No?

What should I do, whip developers until they create such a page, which
they themselves don't need?

Expectation management is a bitch. Did you track down why tmpfs was
disabled?

You can enable it on your own system. At least for a while. If
the quality is improved by someone stepping up, it will remain. If
the quality is not improved in a timely fashion, this disabled code
will rot further, and then need to be removed.
Theo de Raadt
2016-08-02 13:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Espie
I'm one of the guys who would very much like working tmpfs. Actually, it
has worked "good enough for me", but there are a few issues at work.
- I lack the time needed to fully dive into the kernel part.
- naddy did say multiple times it doesn't go all that fast compared to ffs
with ssd (well, I don't have a ssd on my build machines, so tmpfs is
marginally faster)
- there are loads of small nits in it that should properly be fixed.
But most important -- it recently demonstrated low quality with a of
number unexpected NULL dereferences, bogus assertions, and other memory
object mishandling -- and came dangerously close to having a security
hole.

It is below the standard.
Sonic
2016-08-02 19:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theo de Raadt
Whoa. You haven't read the first paragraph of current.html, let me
Active OpenBSD development is known as the -current branch. These
sources are frequently compiled into releases known as
snapshots. Active development sometimes pushes aggressive changes, and
complications can arise when building the latest code from a previous
point in time. Some of the shortcuts for getting over these hurdles
are explained on this page. In general, it's far better to use the
OpenBSD upgrade procedure with a newer snapshot, as developers will
have gone through the trouble for you already.
That purpose of the page is to help people "make build" through the
most disruptive changes.
You seem to believe it is for a different purpose -- to alert about removal
of subsystems which are not critical for building through snapshots.
Yes, and admittedly my mistake. Although I have found current.html to
be quite valuable beyond getting past "make build", so in my defense
it's an easy mistake to make.
Take the last 4 entries. for example:
2016/05/28 - iwm(4) needs new firmware
2016/06/30 - doas.conf adjustment
2016/07/13 - [packages] OpenSMTPD-extras filters removal
2016/08/01 - new mandoc.db(5) format

Certainly all useful, but which of these, if any, would hamper a "make
build"? Possibly the doas.conf, but at least it will print a warning.
Is it possible that limiting the contents to just those items that
would prevent a "make build" might be a bit too restrictive (since it
really hasn't been done in the past)? I doubt I'm the only
non-developer who counts on that file to help me keep from going
astray in so many possible ways when attempting to remain -current.

Chris
Theo de Raadt
2016-08-02 19:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sonic
Post by Theo de Raadt
Whoa. You haven't read the first paragraph of current.html, let me
Active OpenBSD development is known as the -current branch. These
sources are frequently compiled into releases known as
snapshots. Active development sometimes pushes aggressive changes, and
complications can arise when building the latest code from a previous
point in time. Some of the shortcuts for getting over these hurdles
are explained on this page. In general, it's far better to use the
OpenBSD upgrade procedure with a newer snapshot, as developers will
have gone through the trouble for you already.
That purpose of the page is to help people "make build" through the
most disruptive changes.
You seem to believe it is for a different purpose -- to alert about removal
of subsystems which are not critical for building through snapshots.
Yes, and admittedly my mistake. Although I have found current.html to
be quite valuable beyond getting past "make build", so in my defense
it's an easy mistake to make.
2016/05/28 - iwm(4) needs new firmware
2016/06/30 - doas.conf adjustment
2016/07/13 - [packages] OpenSMTPD-extras filters removal
2016/08/01 - new mandoc.db(5) format
Certainly all useful, but which of these, if any, would hamper a "make
build"? Possibly the doas.conf, but at least it will print a warning.
Is it possible that limiting the contents to just those items that
would prevent a "make build" might be a bit too restrictive (since it
really hasn't been done in the past)?
I see you have selected only the parts of my reply which suit you.

The rest of my reply clearly stated we don't have people to do the
work you want.
Post by Sonic
I doubt I'm the only non-developer who counts on that file to help
me keep from going astray in so many possible ways when attempting
to remain -current.
You count on it? The first paragraph tells you not to count on it!

Basically you have no preperation, except counting on us doing
something we say we won't do?
Sonic
2016-08-02 19:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theo de Raadt
I see you have selected only the parts of my reply which suit you.
The rest of my reply clearly stated we don't have people to do the
work you want.
Post by Sonic
I doubt I'm the only non-developer who counts on that file to help
me keep from going astray in so many possible ways when attempting
to remain -current.
You count on it? The first paragraph tells you not to count on it!
Basically you have no preperation, except counting on us doing
something we say we won't do?
Yes, I counted on it. Again my mistake. Sorry for the noise.
dsendkowski
2016-08-02 21:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Raul Miller
2016-08-03 04:14:37 UTC
Permalink
I do not think that this is completely accurate.

Sometimes people will not listen, but sometimes they will.

--
Raul
I really don't know why you, Theo, burn so much energy on such discussions.
It doesn't make any sense. If someone wants to complain they will anyway. No
matter what you say they will keep complaining. It is impossible to fulfill
everybody's requirements so if someone is not satisfied than it is their
problem, not yours.
PSThanks for OpenBSD. You guys are doing great job.
Post by Sonic
Post by Theo de Raadt
Whoa. You haven't read the first paragraph of current.html, let me
Active OpenBSD development is known as the -current branch. These
sources are frequently compiled into releases known as
snapshots. Active development sometimes pushes aggressive changes,
and
Post by Sonic
Post by Theo de Raadt
complications can arise when building the latest code from a
previous
Post by Sonic
Post by Theo de Raadt
point in time. Some of the shortcuts for getting over these hurdles
are explained on this page. In general, it's far better to use the
OpenBSD upgrade procedure with a newer snapshot, as developers will
have gone through the trouble for you already.
That purpose of the page is to help people "make build" through the
most disruptive changes.
You seem to believe it is for a different purpose -- to alert about
removal
Post by Sonic
Post by Theo de Raadt
of subsystems which are not critical for building through snapshots.
Yes, and admittedly my mistake. Although I have found current.html to
be quite valuable beyond getting past "make build", so in my defense
it's an easy mistake to make.
2016/05/28 - iwm(4) needs new firmware
2016/06/30 - doas.conf adjustment
2016/07/13 - [packages] OpenSMTPD-extras filters removal
2016/08/01 - new mandoc.db(5) format
Certainly all useful, but which of these, if any, would hamper a "make
build"? Possibly the doas.conf, but at least it will print a warning.
Is it possible that limiting the contents to just those items that
would prevent a "make build" might be a bit too restrictive (since it
really hasn't been done in the past)?
I see you have selected only the parts of my reply which suit you.
The rest of my reply clearly stated we don't have people to do the
work you want.
Post by Sonic
I doubt I'm the only non-developer who counts on that file to help
me keep from going astray in so many possible ways when attempting
to remain -current.
You count on it? The first paragraph tells you not to count on it!
Basically you have no preperation, except counting on us doing
something we say we won't do?
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